00:00 - 04:45
He applied for role at Dundee, 1970 having previously been living in Bristol. He had visited Scotland before and had nice feelings about Scotland which were influential in his choice to come to Dundee. He had sailed from Lancashire to Oban and had also been on a week long course in Glasgow.

04:45 - 07:45
Arrived in Dundee early one morning while the haar was in. Not taken by the place at first. Colleagues down south ridiculed him for going up to Dundee. Lived in Perth at Kinnoull Hill. Biochemistry department at that time was moving into new building.

07:45 - 10:00
Beginning to build up the department: Difficult to get government money. Needed to get in protein chemists. Philip Cohen? and Derick Chignal? Impressed by fact they applied to Dundee. Showed they were prepared to strike out on new territory.

10:00 - 14:17
Phil was a new scientist. Brought in new machinery, got a gift from Cambridge University. He says that as a head of department you "never stop starting". Always try and get new people into work on various disciplines of chemistry. Genetic Engineering. Chris Higgins, David Lilly - first class. Skilful recruitment. Comparison to head of an orchestra. Always need to replace and improve parts. Gardening comparison: fertilisers, weeds, always needs tending to.

14:17 - 17:24
Everyone was cash-strapped during this time. Adam Neville arrived and staff resources were distributed in terms of teaching and research income.

17:24 - 19:27
Chemistry and biochemistry were in separate buildings, they had no problems and helped each other. Garland made important decision to have Biochemistry as part of the Science Faculty. Biochemistry very science based and did not want Faculty of Science to steal students (had they been in Medical Faculty) and Garland had medical background so could build bridges between two.

19:27 - 21:10
Researcher for Psychiatrist Professor, Sir Ivor Bachelor: Wanted chemist to do research. Garland got one of his former researchers to do it. Successor was Prof Tim Hales.

21:10 - 23:03
Principal Neville: Interviewer asks if difficult financial period impacted his time as Principal. Garland says about Neville that "he called a spade a spade". "Said what he meant and meant what he said." Good to do business with. Neville's daughter is Chief of Police at Metropolitan Police. Talks about a trip to Poland. Neville asked Garland to bring a present back for his daughter.

23:03 - 24:30
MSI Building: Philip Cohen describes it an almost as empty building. Why was it built? University had sense to build a building for the future. Biochemistry was expanding so fast it made sense.

24:30 - 26:23
Braveness: Interviewer asks if it was a bit of a gamble coming to Dundee. Garland does not think so. He was in a good position, he had a medical degree to fall back on, if things hadn't worked out he would have left. He had a PHD and a good background plus an award or two. He always saw move to Dundee as a a good decision. He still had a few fights to fight at the university, but it was a happy time domestically.

26:24 - 29:22
Funding at Dundee University: He thinks that what you did with the grant was much more important than just getting the grant. Accountability was important and you had to have a good track record. You could not do it without grants. You have to produce "goodies" with first grant money before asking for more.

29:23 - 30:35
Interviewer asks if he thought University would end up the way it is today. He gives some reasons for why Dundee is a centre for excellence: Not limited by space, reasonable housing, no long commutes. Dundee is place where people can really come and get stuck into it.

30:35 - 32:16
Recruitment changes with success. Dundee now very well known and has a larger field to choose from. People who came in early days were very pioneering and Garland too has a pioneering spirit. He thinks you cannot compare people who came in the early days to Garland himself. They all had different reasons for coming.

32:16 - 38:11
He did not like committee work, thought it was a waste of time. He did not do committee work in Dundee but had done a lot in London. He was the Chairman of a Medical Research Council funding board which gave him an insight into what it is grant committees look for. It was a whole education in itself. Following this he was then able to advise colleagues on how to write grant applications which was very useful for colleagues. Looking back the things he did were, he thought self evident. Dundee does well compared to other Scottish universities. Problems of staff in other institutions. When he arrived professors from other universities, with the exception of St Andrews, were friendly to him. They were all very nice and welcoming. Garland was "one of the boys".

38:11 - 43:30
Life Sciences - Balance between Teaching and Research: Garland thinks the two are synegistic. He got rid of old methods. He read book "Audio Tutorial Laboratory" which introduced new method of teaching for medical students which was very popular. Involved demonstrations. Staff did not have to spend hours in a lab. One woman would do it. Lecturers would share material. Changed the way science staff taught as well.

43:30 - 46:10
Retirement and Career History: Left Dundee 1985 and then went into industry for two years, Unilever, but was not a good experience. He then became Science Director for (?) International. He became director of the Institute for Cancer Research at age 55. While he was there Dundee was second place for cancer research.

46:10 - 48:57
Lectures had nothing to do with Garland himself. They started after he had left the University. He knows Peter Downes, the current principal, but he came after Garland had left. Garland describes him as very organised, he listens carefully and had been with one of the big pharmaceutical companies. Garland says people in the 1970s would have laughed at the idea of someone from life sciences becoming the principle of a university. Garland himself would have never become principle.

48:57 - 53:10
There were "hairy" incidents that happened in the laboratory. Oil leaked through the ceiling once. They did not take radiation safety as seriously as they should have back then. Philip Cohen used a compund which inhibits enzymes, related to "Bella Donna" which dilates someone's pupils. He was once told that Phil was not well. He went to see him, saw that he was woozy, and knew what the problem was straight away. Cohen was more of a hazard to himself than to other people. There was an antedote but he was fine. Garland says that if you worry about people you will never become head of department. Cohen is nostalgic of their time together. There were also difficulties with money. Garland built himself a laser, "it was lethal". Health and Safety would have shut it down straight away.

53:10 - 55:02
The key to success is you need to have vision of what you want. Successful scientists come in all sorts of shapes and sizes but are always driven by something. Also need to have a good time. Need it to be intellectually stimulating. Requires hard work. Interviewer says this ethos still prevails today. Garland thinks that is true of all good labs.

55:02 - 56:08
International Competition: Interviewer asks if there is any kind of Ivory Tower syndrome - so good that they do not know the rest of the world exists. Garland says that is definitely not true. The world is not confined to Dundee. There is constant competition from scientists in Los Angeles, Heidelberg and Cambridge etc.

56:08 - 1:01:28
Interest in Dundee: He has a paternal relationship towards Dundee. His children grew up there. When he left his jobs in London kept him busy. He was quickly able to put Dundee behind him. Universities round the world publish online and it is there immediately. When asked about the difficulties of being at the top of your field Garland replies: "Once you get to the top you've only got yourself to blame if you go down." Leading labs tend to have their lead for a long time. He feels no sense of ownership towards new buildings. It was a place where things happened. Lots of memories of his house on Kinnoull Hill. He has no emotional attachment to Dundee but has never seen it as being a negative move. Positive in all sorts of ways. However, schooling in Perth for his children didn't work out, was not up to standard

1:01:28 - 1:02:34
His children all got skiing qualifications. His son went to Edinburgh University where he was captain of skiing, athletics and wind surfing. He is also a grade 1 skier, top class. His eldest child went out to Switzerland as a ski instructor where she met a nice Swiss mountain guide and married him. Garland has two Swiss grandchildren. One is a mountaineer and ski guide and the other is a girl reading history at Geneva University, but also works as a ski instructor during holidays to make money. Skiing has had a big impact on life. He still skis today.

1:02:35 - 1:05:07
Advice to Interviewer Researching History of Life Sciences: He says to focus on the people. Garland says that his job was not difficult. You get a good group of people together and off it goes. Often underplays his role. Says you have to get on well with people. Draws comparison with sailing which is another interest of his. Getting on with others is crucial to sailing. Garland has sailed to Brittany.

1:05:08 - 1:11:58
Speaks very highly of people at Dundee. Does not know as many of the current people but speaks highly of the people during his time, such as David Lilly, Graham Hardy and Chris Higgins. He also has admiration for Mike Ferguson. They all have something in common but he cannot say exactly what that is. They all know what excellence is and they admire it in other people. There is mutual respect and a lot of tolerance. Garland says there were no fights when he was there. There was a sense of unity. They all work in similar fields. Interviewer mentioned David Lane but he came after Garland's time. Interviewer also mentions buildings. Garland thought of better ways to spend money and was not into aesthetics. Interviewer asks about golf. Garland was an athlete in his youth. Found playing golf effortless. He liked driving but hated putting. He did not want to get addicted to golf. He had no time for golf during his time at Dundee University.

00:00
Joined October 1991 at 23 years old, came day after submitting PhD thesis in Birmingham. Had been offered a job in London but the expense and business of London wasn't for Dario - had a panic attack and thought what's the opposite of London, Dundee! Didn't know much about Dundee but knew about Philip Cohen so applied. Was told that it would be the end of Dario's career moving to Dundee, Philip had a reputation for taking science too seriously, working too hard and being too competitive. That is environment Dario wanted. Was pleasantly surprised by Dundee, was in old MSI building.

03:00
1991-2005 in the old MSI building and then moved to James Black Centre. Has only really had 2 locations in time there. Appeal of Dundee was the smaller size, can do everything you need to and get where you need to go in 10 minutes, quality of life better. Have always had good funding and University have always left them be until recently.

05:00
Funding still going strong. Still so much left to understand to help diagnose diseases. Current work on Parkinson's, making important breakthroughs every so often. Key to maintain and attract the best people. Best people have institutions like Oxford and Cambridge, who are better funded, competing for them, but Dario still optimistic as still doing quality work and thinks best people will see this and will buy into it. Dundee's edge over other places.

08:30
Philip Cohen, Mike Ferguson and Pete Downes are key. Some of Dario's research has been important in keeping funding coming in. Has allowed collaborations with companies. Doreen Cantrell has been crucial in building up immunology, Grahame Hardie worked on AMP Kinase and played a big role. People work very well together and have supported each other through projects. Always been focused on 1st class research, key people stayed despite other job offers.

12:00
Funding competition between others in the UK. Not competing against colleagues. Often working in related areas so have a synergy and solve problems better this way. Key is working together, if you start competing then it's terminal.

15:15
Dario's research group. Collaborations with groups in Stanford and Munich. Work with GSK and other companies.

17:05
Relationship with pharmaceuticals is very important. They're very good at making drugs and testing them and researchers very good at the basic science and discovering the drug targets, a very complimentary relationship. Students working in companies for experience. Dario finishing his undergraduate and initially wanted to work in a company so applied but never heard back so did a PhD - was told only stupid people work for companies - but Dario thought was a wrong way of thinking and would encourage people to go down this route.

20:40
Relationship with teaching after split from research. In MRC unit traditionally don't do any teaching - they get their salaries from outside bodies and are not actually hired by the university. The MRC who hire them expect them to devote all their time to research. Dario has given a few lectures here and there but focus is on research. Thinks clearly teaching is important and need good people to inspire students but you can't do too much teaching or research will suffer. Works 12 hour days or more, can't do too much teaching on top of this. Dario couldn't teach 100s of hours teaching a year on top of this. Prefers to do one thing outstandingly well then two things OK. Thinks split between research and teaching has been beneficial - some people are fantastic teachers but struggle to get further funding for research after solving one initial problem, so then teaching might become best full-time option. Want teaching to be driven by people who want to do full-time teaching, not people who want to do research, otherwise the teaching will suffer.

24:45
Dario teaches PhD students and will see them on daily basis. Students have lots of energy and good ideas. PhD is just the start and then you continue moving upwards. Most important thing in PhD is to learn how to do good science.

26:15
Teaching of chemistry and biology as standalone. Dario trained as a chemist and in his undergrad there was at least 40% chemistry. Chemistry important to understand biology. Certain forms of chemistry like designing drugs and inhibitors are happening. Would hope there is good foundation for chemistry integrated with biology in their undergrad teaching. If you want to understand things at the molecular level then you need a good appreciation of chemistry. Drug Discovery Unit which Mike Ferguson oversees is all chemistry oriented.

29:50
When Dario arrived he joined department of biochemistry, which was separate from anatomy and physiology. There were few PI's: David Lane, Philip Cohen, Colin Watts, David Lilley, Michael Stark, David Boxer, Grahame Hardie. Almost all of them have become Fellows of Royal Society. Changes of divisions, Dario tries to avoid politics and focus on research. David Boxer was head of school then Pete Downes took over as head of school/division, in 1997/8/9 Pete started bringing things together into the School of Life Sciences. Philip was head of research at this time. Most institutions have merged into Life Sciences and lost Biochemistry department.

33:20
Clarifies School to College to School. Memorable moments/funny anecdotes. Scientifically remembers lots of great moments. Worked for 3 or 4 years with LKB1 involved in cancer, Dario had been working on enzyme in human and Grahame Hardie working on same enzyme in yeast, started talking and realised than LKB1 might be involved in switching on AMP Kinase. Did experiment and had eureka moment, saw big reaction and realised they had made a great discovery. More recent discoveries now, currently working on a paper.

39:00
Breakthrough moment with Pete Downes, working on how insulin switches on glucose intake in the body. Dario talked with Pete Downes and realised the enzymes they were working with might be related somehow. Dario had a couple failed experiments then thought there might be a missing component. Got enzymes from rabbit muscle back then, found missing component and took 6 months to be able to isolate this. Happened by chance due to working next to Pete Downes. This and discovery with Grahame Hardie were two standout breakthrough moments.

0:0
When first joined was Department of Biochemistry, was postdoc in Portsmouth Polytechnic, came to Dundee in 1975 as a postdoc with David Stansfield, after a year applied for lecturing position in Biochemistry. Was temporary position initially created by Philip Cohen, after 5 years position was permanent. Was originally recruited by Peter Garland but shared lab with Philip so he was more like mentor.

01:50
Was in old medical sciences institute at first. Relocations over the years in different labs. Got his own lab when got permanent lectureship - hard to tell where lab is now due to restructuring. Restructuring of School/College of Life Sciences, seems unclear to Grahame and interviewer. Thought behind restructuring was merging departments which largely worked together, process has happened in many university.

04:40
Department of Chemistry being merged into Biochemistry, some were unhappy about this. Chemistry focus became pharmaceuticals rather than physical, organic and inorganic chemistry. Resistance in some parts, but now recruit more students in pharmaceutical chemistry than they used to in pure chemistry.

06:30
Crossover with pharmaceutical companies, invested in activators of AMPK as potential diabetes treatment. In late 90s started getting interest. Not had much direct funding from pharmaceuticals but has had involvement in division of signal transduction therapy (DSTT). This has been particularly beneficial financially for the University, allowed employment of more staff. Hasn't affected Grahame's own research too much although some compounds have been more readily available. Most of Grahame's funding comes particularly from Welcome Trust but he prefers this as you get more freedom with research instead of having to work to a companies briefs.

08:55
Funding competitiveness at Life Sciences in Dundee. Always had a good culture of working together, has never been feeling of competing against colleagues. Always been a cooperative environment. Important collaborations in the past. Big breakthrough with Dario Alessi when working on AMP Kinase and LKB1. Had discussion late afternoon and did experiment next morning and immediately saw big reaction.

12:30
Not much reputation when Grahame first joined. Had emerged out of physiology department who realised they needed to teach some biochemistry so brought in Peter Garland. Life Sciences fortunate that Philip Cohen has stayed and built up department. Other key people Graham Warren and David Glover, both quickly moved on to other places but recruited Peter Downes as Chair of Biochemistry - around this time discussion of merging departments happened. Peter Downes became first head of School of Life Sciences. Merging of divisions was most important thing in success of Life Sciences as created collaborative culture. Mike Ferguson also very important. Played big role in buildings and making sure central facilities were run very efficiently, as everyone uses these but is hard for single individual to raise the funds to get the equipment and then maintain its running.

17:15
Key moment in realising the success was building of Wellcome Trust building. Strange conditions of the building that they had to recruit new group leaders to justify the space being built - so had to recruit people into a building which didn't exist yet. Philip Cohen took lead in recruiting, got Angus Lamond, Mike Ferguson, Adam Fairlamb, Bill Hunter all came at the time of the new Wellcome building. After these people had agreed that's when realised that everything was taking off. Had reached critical mass where if one key person left the department wouldn't collapse.

19:00
Many people have bad idea of Dundee, but is a great place to live. In a beautiful location and relatively inexpensive to live, especially for people comparing with likes of Cambridge, Oxford and London. Is less important these days to be located in a big central city for work, world more connected now. Takes slightly longer to travel from Dundee to say London, but often travelling internationally and not just within UK so makes very little difference for flights.

21:00
Commuting is very quick in Dundee. In big cities like London people commute long distances each evening so there isn't same sense of social life. In Dundee, many students and postdocs live close to the University and have an active social life. Still have annual retreat in Crief, was originally set up by Philip Cohen because he realised what a big enterprise they were becoming and wanted to keep a sense of community. Now impossible to know everyone as is so big, but divisions have helped the cohesion as you know everyone in the division. Divisions very different from old departments - divisions just rough groupings of people with common interest, but have very little power and little money and there's not much of a barrier between divisions so if you want to collaborate then you can. Can still walk and see people in different divisions due to interconnected buildings. Often not the case in other universities with merged departments who are located in different places.

24:10
Relationship with rest of university. Grahame never been overly involved with higher level management of University, doesn't think relationship has changed much. Life Sciences as a separate entity. Cohesion of Life Sciences has meant less collaboration with other Schools, but unsure that this has ever causes any problems.

25:30
Grahame always been employed by the university, unlike Philip and Dario who are employed by the MRC. Grahame always enjoyed teaching, used to run the 2nd year biochemistry teaching. Introduced new computer aided teaching at the time. Recently become less involved in organisation of the teaching because has been taken over by the Learning and Teaching unit. When they were the College of Life Sciences they had the school of research and the school of learning and teaching so there was a separation. Learning and teaching did all of the organisation when previously one of the regular lecturers would've organised things. Always been a spirit that research active lecturers should be involved in some teaching particularly for level 3 and 4. Usually run on divisional basis, so divisions not divisions for research they're also divisions which have ownership of some modules for levels 3 and 4 - still with assistance of office of learning and teaching. Grahame used to be convenor of Cell Signalling module for levels 3 and 4, has always been heavily involved in teaching. Excitement bout research comes through for students if being taught by researchers. Gives students skills needed to do their own research.

30:00
Priority of teaching. People not employed by the university can't be expected to teach as much but they still do some - most quite happy to give odd lecture and set/mark exam papers to get feedback about level of their teaching. Exam marking easier now as all exams done on keyboards so don't have to struggle with reading students handwriting.

31:40
Old biochemistry department, was a lab which had a fume hood in it and a PhD student would always turn it into a Christmas grotto every year which didn't go down well with Peter Garland. Peter Garland was a slightly daunting figure to Grahame - possibly because he was a lecturer in Biochemistry and Grahame had a very junior position, but you never knew what Peter was thinking so at that stage he was slightly intimidated. Philip Cohen was bigger mentor figure than Peter Garland, Peter said he couldn't set Grahame up with his own lab yet because there wasn't enough funding so Grahame shared a lab with Philip and got lots of advice from him.

34:15
Grahame's had productive relationship with postdocs that have stayed with his research for a long time. Unfortunately Grahame does less laboratry work now as has many other things to do, but still feels very much involved and comes up with many ideas. Enjoys swapping ideas with people in his lab. Often finds if he's thinking of something he will go down to lab and try to explain it to them and this helps him understand it more - partly why Grahame enjoys teaching.

36:00
Future of Life Sciences. Not sure whether it can continue expanding, would probably be hard but Life Sciences has reached and risen above critical mass where if 1 or 2 key people leave then it would be a blow but it wouldn’t sink the place. Thinks will probably retire soon but hopes Life Sciences maintains its success. A bit disappointed that there haven't been more spin-offs in terms of biotech - have been some but not as many as would have liked. number of biotech companies have set up in Dundee as a direct result of Life Sciences in Dundee, but none have taken off massively which is disappointing. Lots of small companies setting up, is nice to see this bringing employment. Life Sciences

38:40
Discussion about archive materials, possible letters from Peter Garland for 50th anniversary exhibition. Has a good email archive back into 00s and 1990s. Mentions original McIntosh computer for museum collection. Technology before word processing.

00:00 - 02:24
He was actively recruited to Dundee by Philip Cohen. He was working in Oxford at the time and had also done post-doc work in New York. He met Philip Cohen, had lunch with him, and was then invited to give a seminar in Dundee.

02:24 - 03:50
He grew up in a poor working class town in north east England which had suffered recession. He recognised a similar situation in Dundee. He did not think it was the most beautiful of cities but it was in a beautiful environment.

03:50 - 06:12
Philip was a fantastic mentor. He was not interfering but always there for you. Philip got him involved in the recruitment of others. They were still based in the MSI building at the time. He thought the people who worked there were inspiring. They originally wanted to add a new floor to the MSI building but they ended up with the Welcome Trust Building.

06:12 - 08:04
Interviewer says that the biochemistry department has a great sense of its own history. People such as Peter Garland had already left by the time he joined but he knew about him and the many others who had worked in the department.

08:04 - 10:54
He is against setting strategies, such as five year plans, because the environment that you work in changes so rapidly. He thinks that rigid strategies can lock you into the unobtainable. He used to be the Dean of Research but he is not any more. He still has a role in recruitment and is on an internal search committee.

10:54 - 14:24
The Welcome Trust Building is the creation of Philip Cohen and he did not have much involvement in it. He was much more involved in the James Black extension.

14:24 - 20:41
He works a six day week and sometimes does a ten hour day. His wife is also a scientist so was very understanding. Later on in his career he was able to devolve some tasks to others. The interviewer thinks he is quite different to some of the other people who have worked within life sciences. He is not a quitter and likes to just get involved in things. He always likes to challenge the status quo and find ways of improving on things. He also likes to bring people together across disciplines.

20:41 - 22:42
The principal Pete Downs pushed through the concept of having researchers and teachers, although researchers still do some teaching.

22:42 - 25:19
Climbing to the top is fun but staying at the top is much more difficult. Dundee University is not as big as Oxford but is up with them for quality. To stay at the top you need aggressive recruiting. Good people will bring in good research funding. He does not have anything to do with student recruitment.

25:19 - 26:46
He feels close to other departments, in particular, DoJ. DoJ was involved in the design of the new Life Sciences building.

26:46 - 30:53
He has been funded by the Welcome Trust for a very long time. He moved to Dundee in 1986 with a grant of £750,000. In 2011 he found out that they were recruiting for a new board of governors and was encouraged to apply. He had always been very grateful to the Welcome Trust and thought a position on the board meant he could help future research projects. He later became the Deputy Chair of Board of Governance. He has become the Regus Chair of Life Sciences.

30:53 - 34:38
It has been a mission of his to grow and nurture the local biotech industry. This would have benefits for the city. Now is also a great time to rekindle the industry. He wants to create a healthy investment environment and regularly invites people to come and see for themselves. He thinks the more dialogue you have between people the better. A lot has happened in a very short space of time.

34:38 - 38:01
He does not dwell on the past too much. He is very proud of the new discovery building. He has spent nearly half of his life in Dundee and feels it is very much his home. When asked about retirement he says that it is very important to know when to go and to let a younger generation take over. He is not planning on going on beyond 67.

0
Progression to University Principal from beginnings of growing up on council estate. Only male in class who passes their 11+. Enjoyed sport at school. Got paper round at 13, woke up first out of family. Had sports training 2 nights week after school.

05:00
Rugby, athletics and football during teenage years. Early routine created work ethic. Roaming in fields or playing football and then coming home to eat. Doing O-levels then A-levels then started thinking about University. Applied for Oxbridge scholarship. Received unconditional place at Cambridge. Benefits of public school over state school for receiving places at University - "Inequalities not always as obvious as you'd imagine."

09:00
Interviewer asks what he goes on to study, Pete says he didn't end up studying at Cambridge. Wrote to ICI (pharmaceuticals) to see if could work in research labs as a lab assistant. Discovered part-time degrees at Stockport College of Technology. Fear of going to Cambridge because was a very alien environment. His mother thought that he should go to Cambridge because he had a place, many others suggested he should go to Cambridge but at this point Pete was too stubborn and fearful to go, so did not study at university as an undergraduate.

11:50
Instead he did 2 years HNC, and 3 years Member of Institute Biology exams which was equivalent of an honours degree. Similar to a degree apprenticeship. Had a full-time job as well, worked and studied. Got a lot of lab experience and learned to think experimentally.

13:15
Persuaded self to go to university to do a PhD so as to get research funding. Decided was not a rational decision but was an emotional decision, thought would regret it forever if didn't do it.

15:05
When and where to do PhD. Edinburgh offer was "a compete joke" - man interviewing treated him very differently, showed him undergrad exams and Pete thought was an idiotic way to interview someone as suggested they didn't trust his prior experience. Turned down Edinburgh offer. Birmingham had similar approach to Dundee recruitment, would be interviewed by postgrad admissions and then would do a tour and talk to supervisors of current projects. Met Bob Michelle, a hippy, who treated Pete like an equal and talked him through his lab work, had an inspired hypothesis. Found this topic interesting and called to say he wanted to come to Birmingham but only if he could work with Bob Michelle.

20:20
Time in his lab transformed the programme from being research that no-one believed to being 'hot topic'. Was lucky enough to be involved in this critical part and wrote thesis on topic, which has now been vastly replicated. Time in ICI meant he knew how to organise his lab space. Need for safety around radioactive material. Fellow PhD student once threw a glove across lab and Pete told him off for potentially spilling radioactive material, health and safety wasn't a big deal but Pete was only one that knew how to take it seriously and do it properly.

23:30
ICI background did no harm but if had gone to Cambridge would've got a quicker insight into forefront of research. Wouldn't recommended his route to others but it worked for him. Decision to stay in academia or go back into industry. Offered various fellowships to work in labs in Cambridge. Then doing very highly-cited work, papers have 2000 or more citations.

26:00
Going to lunch with Nobel prize winners. Took another job at ICI but were becoming much more restricted and very risk-averse. This didn't suit Pete. Was still publishing 2 or 3 papers a year. Had to move for different job in Hertfordshire and spent 5 years there, had to make wife move too. Made further breakthroughs in now very important field, was awarded by Biochemical society their Colworth medal.

28:50
Cohen also winning Colworth medal, Pete winning made him more well-known to Cohen and was invited to give a seminar. Came to Dundee, Cohen arranged a car to collect him from airport and was taken to Cohen's house in Blairgowrie. Then brought into the University, gave seminar and did a tour. Everyone was can-do and enthusiastic about the work they were doing, no-one was complaining about research funding. Received letter from Cohen asking if he wanted to join research in Dundee.

31:55
Joining Dundee was not absent from Pete's thoughts. Had recently had daughter Amy, sat down with wife and said that joining Dundee would guarantee interest from other people and would give a lengthy position where they could bring up their new-born child. Realised that his prior invitation to give a seminar was really an interview for Cohen to judge his character.

34:00:00
Move seemed unfeasible at first. Wasn't sure if could transition from business into academia. Cohen put Pete's family up in a hotel outside of Dundee, took him for a tour of favourite places locally. Before leaving decided that it was too good not to try and make it work. Pete and Elizabeth were outdoor people, both from North of England which is culturally much more in line with Dundee than in Hertfordshire. Felt at home in Dundee, visited in 1988, moved in 1989 because took a year to come into fruition.

37:05
Was leading Biochemistry department but especially for Pete's field was the best place he could come. Took up Chair of Biochemistry at 35 years old. Cohen took a risk on him. First 2 big grants were turned down. Was hard in first 2 years to accept new situation.

38:30:00
Names around at this time were Philip Cohen, Grahame Hardie, David Nicolls, Roger Booth, David Curnuhen & David Lilley. Was a buzz about the people that were there, was a cooperative competitiveness. Worked together.

40:00
Relationship with rest of university at the time. Michael Hamlin was principal and helped Pete see that he was joining a University, but culturally biochemistry was quite separate. Was seen as a privileged area, but privilege was hard-won. Standards of excellence and degree of ambition was what separated it from rest of University. Pete's task as Principal has been to try and create that sense of ambition across whole University.

43:30
Becoming head of Biochemistry was first management role. Differences in salary levels. Cohen thought Pete was deserving of more money than some people not achieving as much through the University. Some Schools just appoint people who might be able to teach a subject but no better candidates showed up. Enjoyed parallel life between leadership role and continuing own research.

47:45
More time in leadership meant progression towards Dean and then School Head, more Pete became interested in relationships across University and developing University as a whole. Merged the whole of Life Sciences subjects. Merged biological sciences, biochemistry, anatomy & physiology, and chemistry. Biological sciences research reputation had reached a high and was now declining, had 3* when Biochemistry had 5* and was staying there. Anatomy and physiology were bringing some cell biology in to create credible research alongside a few good physiologists like Harry & Mike Renny. Had good people but were 4* rated and not sustainable.

50:00:00
Biological sciences resourced all of their staff, had twice as many technicians than biochemistry but biochemistry had 10x amount of funding. Biological sciences not being careful with their budget. Merging: called it a School at first and the structure change made it a faculty. Was briefly a Dean, then became a college and was then Vice Principal. All separate disciplines were brought together and was done within a day. Often wonders why the existing heads of department just went with it. Created a technical unit and removed technicians from specific people. Was archaic and divisive.

54:00
Beginnings of biochemistry and Peter Garland. Lots of admin going on behind the scenes. Pete says Garland was key in producing the starting conditions. Garland's philosophy was that we need to appoint people that would be better than us, and then couldn't go wrong. Bill Stewart built up biological sciences and department was good while he was there, but went downhill after he left because he didn't appoint people who were good enough. He appointed some good people but had a charismatic top-down style and people did as they were told. Peter Garland appointed Philip Cohen, no better example of appointing someone better than you who will go on to be a better biochemist than you. Garland as a brilliant recruiter, set up department for success. Better than building department in image of one individual so things crumble when they leave.

56:20
Had to fix this, hence the merging of departments. Took out people who weren't performing research at right level, some ended up leaving. Some people said was best thing that ever happened to them, was eye-opening. Some weren't as pleased. Brought other lower rated departments into 5* department, Pete thought was worth the risk because was the only way to them.

01:00:10
Anatomists were a problem: research was really low-grade, everyone was elderly, problem was it was mainly teaching focused, did bits of unhelpful research. Thought might transfer anatomy to medicine because they're the ones who needed it most. Dave Dawson had a PhD student but needed someone else with more expertise, brought in Sue Black.

01:04:00
Sue Black tells Pete about forensic anthropology. Subject was becoming very popular with students. Pete saw it as a way to create a new stream of people who could teach anatomy but also setting up a new course for forensic anthropology which they knew would be immediately popular. Sue always moving on to the next thing.

01:11:20
The embalming system. 'Have I got News For You' appearance.

01:13:30
Taking over from previous principal Alan Langlands. Alan was a very strong, strategist who understands the political sensitivities involved in running institutions. Alan wanted Pete to convince him he would be a good principal for the University - Pete said he told him that he had an ambitious vision for future for the overall University and that he was someone who could see the excellence of biochemistry. Alan setting up the new college structure, Pete became part of his senior team. Pete defended Life Sciences but wanted their successes replicated elsewhere.

01:19:40
Became clear that Pete was Alan's deputy, was clear that Pete would take over. Key for Pete deciding to become principal was being able to keep doing research - still had grants funding research.

01:21:30
Knew would always be seen to be someone with a foot in Life Sciences so knew his decisions as principal would be scrutinised. Putting resources into Life Sciences would be seen as favouriting his department but ignoring it would be seen as deserting Life Sciences and not putting money into strongest part. Budget settings and developing strategies. Building relationships with people in his team so there was trust.

01:25:50
Feelings about ending being principal. Never feels satisfied. Happy to have left university in a stronger position than found it, but never fully lets himself believe that. Only sometimes allows himself a bit of pride, but lets himself be proud of what everyone else in the University has achieved. Puzzled when asked how he manages to do such a big job because he has everyone in the University helping him do his job.

01:28:30
Pete sees it as a knighthood for Dundee rather than for him, but doesn't get rid of its importance for him as an individual. Future uncertain. Possibility to go back South for family. Wants to retire properly so can spend time with Elizabeth, still love outdoor activities and natural history, want to travel after retirement. Also wants to keep some kind of work going, wants to keep seeing how the University does from a distance and hopes he wont interfere. Happy to assist new principal in whatever way they want but recognises that they will have their own ideas - hopes that they will continue some of the excellence of recent years. Hopes Pete's insight will only be to help new principal find their own feet.

00:00 - 04:45
Reasons for Coming to Dundee: He applied for role at Dundee, 1970 having previously been living in Bristol. He had visited Scotland before and had nice feelings about Scotland which were influential in his choice to come to Dundee. He had sailed from Lancashire to Oban and had also been on a week long course in Glasgow.

04:45 - 07:45
First Experiences in Dundee: Arrived in Dundee early one morning while the haar was in. Not taken by the place at first. Colleagues down south ridiculed him for going up to Dundee. Lived in Perth at Kinnoull Hill. Biochemistry department at that time was moving into new building.

07:45 - 10:00
Beginning to build up the department: Difficult to get government money. Needed to get in protein chemists. Philip Cohen? and Derick Chignal? Impressed by fact they applied to Dundee. Showed they were prepared to strike out on new territory.

10:00 - 14:17
Further Developments: Phil ??? Was a new scientist. Brought in new machinery. Got a gift from Cambridge University. He says that as a head of department you "never stop starting". Always try and get new people into work on various disciplines of chemistry. Genetic Engineering. Chris Higgins, David Lilly - first class. Skilful recruitment. Comparison to head of an orchestra. Always need to replace and improve parts. Gardening comparison: fertilisers, weeds, always needs tending to.

14:17 - 17:24
Money: Everyone was cash-strapped during this time. Adam Neville arrived and staff resources were distributed in terms of teaching and research income.

17:24 - 19:27
Relationship between Chemistry and Biochemistry at the time: Separate buildings, no problems, helped each other. Garland made important decision to have Biochemistry as part of the Science Faculty. Biochemistry very science based, did not want Faculty of Science to steal students (had they been in Medical Faculty) and Garland had medical background so could build bridges between two.

19:27 - 21:10
Researcher for Psychiatrist Professor, Sir Ivor Bachelor: Wanted chemist to do research. Garland got one of his former researchers to do it. Successor was Prof Tim Hales.

21:10 - 23:03
Principal Neville: Interviewer asks if difficult financial period impacted his time as Principal. Garland says about Neville that "he called a spade a spade". "Said what he meant and meant what he said." Good to do business with. Neville's daughter is Chief of Police at Metropolitan Police. Talks about a trip to Poland. Neville asked Garland to bring a present back for his daughter.

23:03 - 24:30
MSI Building: Philip Cohen describes it an almost as empty building. Why was it built? University had sense to build a building for the future. Biochemistry was expanding so fast it made sense.

24:30 - 26:23
Braveness: Interviewer asks if it was a bit of a gamble coming to Dundee. Garland does not think so. He was in a good position. He had a medical degree to fall back on. If things hadn't worked out he would have left. He had a PHD and a good background plus an award or two. He always saw move to Dundee as a a good decision. He still had a few fights to fight at the university. It was a happy time domestically.

26:24 - 29:22
Funding at Dundee University: He thinks that what you did with the grant was much more important than just getting the grant. Accountability was important and you had to have a good track record. You could not do it without grants. You have to produce "goodies" with first grant money before asking for more.

29:23 - 30:35
Dundee University Today: Interviewer asks if he thought University would end up the way it is today. He gives some reasons for why Dundee is a centre for excellence: Not limited by space, reasonable housing, no long commutes. Dundee is place where people can really come and get stuck into it.

30:35 - 32:16
Recruitment: Recruitment changes with success. Dundee now very well known and has a larger field to choose from. People who came in early days were very pioneering and Garland too has a pioneering spirit. He thinks you cannot compare people who came in the early days to Garland himself. They all had different reasons for coming.

32:16 - 38:11
Feeling part of the University: He did not do committee work in Dundee but had done a lot in London. He was the Chairman of a Medical Research Council funding board which gave him an insight into what it is grant committees look for. It was a whole education in itself. Following this he was then able to advise colleagues on how to write grant applications which was very useful for colleagues. Looking back the things he did were, he thought self evident. Dundee does well compared to other Scottish universities. Problems of staff in other institutions. When he arrived professors from other universities, with the exception of St Andrews, were friendly to him. They were all very nice and welcoming. Garland was "one of the boys".

38:11 - 43:30
Life Sciences - Balance between Teaching and Research: Garland thinks the two are synergistic. He got rid of old methods. He read book "Audio Tutorial Laboratory" which introduced new method of teaching for medical students which was very popular. Involved demonstrations. Staff did not have to spend hours in a lab. One woman would do it. Lecturers would share material. Changed the way science staff taught as well.

43:30 - 46:10
Retirement and Career History: Left Dundee 1985 and then went into industry for two years, Unilever, but was not a good experience. He then became Science Director for ??? International. He then became director of the Institute for Cancer Research at age 55. While he was there Dundee was second place for cancer research.

46:10 - 48:57
Peter Garland Lectures and University Leadership: Lectures had nothing to do with Garland himself. They started after he had left the University. He knows Peter Downes, the current principal, but he came after Garland had left. Garland describes him as very organised, he listens carefully and had been with one of the big pharmaceutical companies. Garland says people in the 1970s would have laughed at the idea of someone from life sciences becoming the principle of a university. Garland himself would have never become principle.

48:57 - 53:10
Incidents: There were "hairy" incidents that happened in the laboratory. Oil leaked through the ceiling once. They did not take radiation safety as seriously as they should have back then. Philip Cohen used a compound which inhibits enzymes, related to "Bella Donna" which dilates someone's pupils. He was once told that Phil was not well. He went to see him, saw that he was woozy, and knew what the problem was straight away. Cohen was more of a hazard to himself than to other people. There was an antidote but he was fine. Garland says that if you worry about people you will never become head of department. Cohen is nostalgic of their time together. There were also difficulties with money. Garland built himself a laser, "it was lethal". Health and Safety would have shut it down straight away.

53:10 - 55:02
Keys to Success: Need to have vision of what you want. Successful scientists come in all sorts of shapes and sizes but are always driven by something. Also need to have a good time. Need it to be intellectually stimulating. Requires hard work. Interviewer says this ethos still prevails today. Garland thinks that is true of all good labs.

55:02 - 56:08
International Competition: Interviewer asks if there is any kind of Ivory Tower syndrome - so good that they do not know the rest of the world exists. Garland says that is definitely not true. The world is not confined to Dundee. There is constant competition from scientists in Los Angeles, Heidelberg and Cambridge etc.

56:08 - 1:01:28
Interest in Dundee: He has a paternal relationship towards Dundee. His children grew up there. When he left his jobs in London kept himself busy. He was quickly able to put Dundee behind him. Universities round the world publish online and it is there immediately. When asked about the difficulties of being at the top of your field Garland replies: "Once you get to the top you've only got yourself to blame if you go down." Leading labs tend to have their lead for a long time. He feels no sense of ownership towards new buildings. It was a place where things happened. Lots of memories of his house on Kinnoull Hill. He has no emotional attachment to Dundee but has never seen it as being a negative move. Positive in all sorts of ways. However, schooling in Perth for his children didn't work out, was not up to standard.

1:01:28 - 1:02:34
Skiing and Children: His children all got skiing qualifications. His son went to Edinburgh University where he was captain of skiing, athletics and wind surfing. He is also a grade 1 skier, top class. His eldest child went out to Switzerland as a ski instructor where she met a nice Swiss mountain guide and married him. Garland has two Swiss grandchildren. One is a mountaineer and ski guide and the other is a girl reading history at Geneva University, but also works as a ski instructor during holidays to make money. Skiing has had a big impact on life. He still skis today.

1:02:35 - 1:05:07
Advice to Interviewer Researching History of Life Sciences: He says to focus on the people. Garland says that his job was not difficult. You get a good group of people together and off it goes. Often underplays his role. Says you have to get on well with people. Draws comparison with sailing which is another interest of his. Getting on with others is crucial to sailing. Garland has sailed to Brittany.

1:05:08 - 1:11:58
Closing Remarks: Speaks very highly of people at Dundee. Does not know as many of the current people but speaks highly of the people during his time, such as David Lilly, Graham Hardy and Chris Higgins. He also has admiration for Mike Ferguson. They all have something in common but he cannot say exactly what that is. They all know what excellence is and they admire it in other people. There is mutual respect and a lot of tolerance. Garland says there were no fights when he was there. There was a sense of unity. They all work in similar fields. Interviewer mentioned David Lane but he came after Garland's time. Interviewer also mentions buildings. Garland thought of better ways to spend money and was not into aesthetics. Interviewer asks about golf. Garland was an athlete in his youth. Found playing golf effortless. He liked driving but hated putting. He did not want to get addicted to golf. He had no time for golf during his time at Dundee University.